Are Hindu gods cheater? Vedkabhed exposed

This blog is in response to another blog written by Vedkabhed.

Suleiman's Claim

In the Vedas, homage is paid to Rudra in following epithets,

Yajur Veda 16.20-22 “…homage to the towering sword-bearer, to the Lord of thieves homage! Homage to the gliding robber…Homage to the cheat, to the arch-deceiver, to the Lord of stealers homage…to the Lord of robbers homage…to the Lord of plunderers homage…Lord of land-grabbers homage…” Tr. Ralph T.H. Griffith

Devi Bhagavatam 7.33.1-19 “I am the “Sutrâtman, Hiranyagarbha that resides in subtle bodies and it is I that am the Virât, residing in the gross bodies. I am Brahmâ, Visnu, and Mahes’vara; I am the Brâhmâ, Vaisnavi and Raudrî S’aktis. I am the Sun, I am the Moon, I am the Stars; I am beast, birds, Chandâlas and I am the Thief, I am the cruel hunter; I am the virtuous highsouled persons and I am the female, male, and hermaphrodite. There is no doubt in this. O Mountain! Wherever there is anything, seen or heard, I always exist there, within and without, There is nothing moving or unmoving, that can exist without Me…” Tr. Swami Vijnananda

My Response

The author is hesitating in giving the complete mantra of Yajurveda. Griffith translated the word नमः as homage which is not wrong but as I told in previous blogs, sanskrit words have various meanings. नमः also means thunderbolt. This hymn is dedicated to Rudra who is known for punishing.

In Devi Bhagavatam 7:33 god is actually telling that he is inside all beings. So if god is saying that he is the thief here, we can't conclude that he is thief.

This whole world is interwoven in Me; It is I that am the Îs'vara that resides in causal bodies; I am the "Sutrâtman, Hiranyagarbha that resides in subtle bodies and it is I that am the Virât, residing in the gross bodies. I am Brahmâ, Visnu, and Mahes'vara; I am the Brâhmâ, Vaisnavi and Raudrî S'aktis. I am the Sun, I am the Moon, I am the Stars; I am beast, birds, Chandâlas and I am the Thief, I am the cruel hunter; I am the virtuous high-souled persons and I am the female, male, and hermaphrodite. There is no doubt in this. O Mountain! Wherever there is anything, seen or heard, I alway exist there, within and without, There is nothing moving or unmoving, that can exist without Me.

Suleiman's Claim

In the Rig Veda, Varuna is described as an Asura,

अस्तभ्नाद दयामसुरो विश्ववेदा अमिमीत वरिमाणं पर्थिव्याः |

आसीदद विश्वा भुवनानि सम्राड विश्वेत तानि वरुणस्य वरतानि ||

Rig Veda 8.42.1. LORD of all wealth, the Asura propped the heavens, and measured out the broad earth’s wide expanses. He, King supreme, approached all living creatures. All these are Varuṇa’s holy operations.

Varuna here is considered an Asura. Rig Veda 1.174.1 calls Indra as Asura, in many verses of Rig Veda, Vedic gods like Mitra, Varuna, Savitr, Agni, Pushan etc. are considered Asuras. It will require a lengthy explanation to understand this better, But it’s not possible to explain it in this article as the explanation will divert the readers to other topic, hence I will not indulge in deep analysis, It is better to have a separate article on this topic. But I will analyse this verse from Arya Samaj point of view. The belief of Arya Samaj is that Varuna, Indra, Agni etc., are all names of one and only god, where the attribute Varuna denotes ‘holiest of all’. But Varuna in the above verse is considered an Asura, Arya Samaji scholars has wrongfully translated the word Asura here as omnipotent. Below is Pundit Javdev Sharma’s Hindi translation,

Below Hindi translation is taken from Arya Samaj website,

The meaning given by Arya Samaji scholars is contrary to the meaning given by Arya Samaj founder Swami Dayanand Saraswati who translated the word Asura as,

“The good and learned were also called Devaas, while the ignorant and wicked, such as dacoits (robbers), were called Asura.” Satyarth Prakash, by Swami Dayanand Saraswati, ch 8, page 264, Tr. Chiranjiva Bhardwaja

So the Veda calls their god a dacoit, robber. Dayanand contradicted his own meanings in several places as it is normal for Arya Samajis to give their own meanings to suit their interests.

My Response

As I earlier said, author has no knowledge about sanskrit and Hindu scriptures. The word asura carries both good and bad meanings. In Nirukta 3:8 three etymologies of asura are given.

1. as (√as 'to throw') -u-ra 'thrown out or striped out from their place'

2. asu + ra 'possessed of breath'

3. a (na) - su (good) -ra 'born out of evil'

In Nirukta 10:34, asura is used in good sense.

1. asu (knowledge) + ra 'possed of knowledge.

2. asurtva > vasurtva 'possessor of water/wealth/divinity

Here, Asura means divine or wise. There is an another etymology of asura which Arya samajis used.

The word asura is derived from root word asoonrati which means the lord who gives strength. (Translated from the screenshot given below - The Rigveda by Pandit Harisharan Sidhhantalankar)

As far as the quote of Maharishi Dayanand is concerned, he himself has written that sanskrit words have different meanings and can the meaning should be used as per the scriptures like Nirukta. Now concluding that god is called cheater in vedas totally sounds nonsense.

Suleiman's Claim

It was Indra who started the feud with Vritra by killing his brother Trisira for no fault of his, Trisira was an ascetic who was engaged in study of Vedas so Indra was afraid that Trisira may replace him from the status of king of gods so he killed him. Vishvakarma was the father of Trisira and he was enraged over murder of his son so he performed penance and Vritra was born with a sole motive of killing Indra. Indra was scared of him and sought help of Vishnu who then hatched a plan to kill Vritra. He advised Indra to befriend Vritra and then kill him deceitfully as mentioned in Mahabharata Udyog Parva 5, Section 10. Indra used similar tactic to kill Namuchi. He befriended Namuchi and entered into a covenant with him and cunningly beheaded Namuchi.

My Response

First of all, Indra is a devata or demigod not a god. He is also under the influence of maya so he can do mistakes. And Trisira was not killed without any reason. Trisira or Viśvarūpa was preceptor of devatas but he used to offer oblations to daityas (enemies of devatas) that's why Indra killed him.

Skanda Purana 1:1:15:7-8. Once he was detected due to his partiality (regarding relative importance of oblations) by Indra who remained concealed and unobserved. Then the desired object (of Triśiras) was understood (by Indra).(Deveṇdra thought) ‘He is making this piecemeal offering for the sake of accomplishing the task of Daityas. He is our preceptor, but gives the benefit to (our) enemies.’ 9. After thinking thus, Śakra cut off his heads instantaneously by means of his Vajra (thunderbolt) of hundred spikes. The death was instantaneous.

Vritra then attacked Indra and forced him to share his position with him. Then Indra used tactics to kill him. As punishment, he got the sin of brahmahatya. Vrtra was a cruel demon who killed many innocent people and was enemy of righteousness as described in Padma Purana, Bhumikhand Chapter 25.

22-24. An enemy should always be killed by this or that means. You are angry because the wicked demon, the lord of even the three worlds, the killer of gods and brāhmaṇas, the enemy of sacrifices and righteousness is killed. Is it a sign of justice? O best brāhmaṇas, first think (properly), then you may be angry if you think my injustice (i.e. if you think I have done injustice).

25-26. The brāhmaṇas were thus addressed by Indra. The best ones were also admonished by all gods like Brahmā. When that demon, the enemy of righteousness was killed, they went to their respective abodes.

In case of Namuchi, Indra promised him that he would not kill him from something that is dry or wet. That's why he killed him from water foam. So, It was not a cheating but a war tactic used by Indra. And we should not forget that he was Namuchi who hid in sun rays to protect himself from Indra it means Indra was stronger than him. 

Next he gave a refrence from Rigveda and claimed that Hindu gods are thief. Sanskrit word परिपन्थीव is used in the Sanskrit verse which means dacoits and theives. I already covered this topic in my blog Response to Vedkabhed on voilence in Vedas! 

Suleiman's Claim

Hindu god Vishnu is said to practice deception.

Gita 10.36 “I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong.” Tr. Swami Prabhupada

Swami Prabhupada comments on this verse,

“There are many kinds of cheaters all over the universe. Of all cheating processes, gambling stands supreme and therefore represents Kṛṣṇa. As the Supreme, Kṛṣṇa can be more deceitful than any mere man. If Kṛṣṇa chooses to deceive a person, no one can surpass Him in His deceit. His greatness is not simply one-sided – it is all-sided…” Swami Prabhupada on Gita 10.36 http://www.vedabase.com/en/bg/10/36

It is mentioned in Brahmanda Purana,

Brahmanda Purana 2.3.24.6 Lord Vishnu the most excellent among all persons is reputed to be a Mayavi.

Maya, Mayinam, Mayavi means fraud, deception, illusion.

Narada Purana II.52.55 “…Mayavin one who has Maya (deception).” Tr. G.V. Tagare

Following are some definitions by V.S. Apte,

https://vedkabhed.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/apte-1.png?w=300

https://vedkabhed.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/apte-2.png?w=300

https://vedkabhed.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/apte-3.png?w=300

[The Practical Sanskrit English Dictionary, page 861, by V.S. Apte, Printed at the Arya Vijaya Press, 150 Budhwar Peth, 1890]

 

https://vedkabhed.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/svami-satya-prakash.png?w=300

[Rig Veda Samhita, page 439, Vol II, by Svami Satya Prakash Saraswati and Satyakam Vidyalankar, Published by Veda Pratishthana 1977, New Delhi]

 

So Hindu god Vishnu is ‘reputed’ of being a Mayavi (fraud).

My Response

In B.G. 10:36 lord Krishna said that he is gambling in deception because in that chapter god was telling about his opulences. When he said that I am gambling of cheats it means if "cheating" is a vice, then "gambling" could be highest among the vices. In the commentry of Prabhupada, it is clearly written that "If Kṛṣṇa chooses to deceive a person,......" it means that lord Krishna is superior to human beings in everything. Now even Islam says that god can do anything ( Quran 35:1). Now from author's logic, can we say that Allah can do all sort of crimes like rape, murder, robbery etc.? Can't he? 

As per the Hindu philosophy, an atman or soul is stuck in this universe called maya and is unable to attain moksha. Greed, anger, lust, grief are the effects of this maya and a soul wants liberation from this maya. This maya or universe was created by God that's why he is called mayavi. It doesn't mean that he deceives people. Suleiman again gave a wrong translation of sanskrit words. Maya (माया) has many meanings apart from cheating in dictionary like magic, supernatural powers, illusion, wisdom, sympathy, art etc. These meanings are also given in Apte's dictionary but author didn't showed them. Another famous sanskrit dictionary Monier Williams also gives same meaning.

mSuleiman's claim

In the Rig Veda, Vedic gods are said to use deceit (Maya). Ashvina is said to use deceit in Rig Veda 5.78.5. In Rig Veda 5.63.4 Mitr-Varun used Maya. In many verses Indra is also said to use deceit (Maya), it is mentioned in Rig Veda,

Rig Veda 1.11.7 “Indra, thou didst kill by stratagem, the wily Sushna; the intelligent know thy (greatness); multiply their food.” Tr. M.N. Dutt

Shri Ram Sharma’s Hindi translation

https://vedkabhed.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/rig-veda-1-11-7.png?w=300

Pundit Ram Govind Trivedi’s Hindi translation

https://vedkabhed.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/rig-veda-1-11-7-govind-trivedi.png?w=300

Indra calls himself the master of Maya (fraud) in Bhagavad Purana,

Srimad Bhagavatam 8.11.3-4 “…Indra the wielder of Vajra, spoke to him as follows: Just as a roguish conjuror makes gullible persons as if blind folded by his conjuring tricks (and incantations) and robs them of their money, you desire to conquer us, the masters of such Mayas (black magic and illusory tricks) with your Maya, Oh fool.” Tr. G.V. Tagare

My Response

Surprisingly, author is not using Griffith's translation now.

Rigveda 5:78:5. Tree, part asunder like the side of her who bringeth forth a child. Ye Asvins, listen to my call: loose Saptavadhri from his bonds.

Rigveda 5:63:4.Your magic, Mitra-Varuna, resteth in the heaven. The Sun, the wondrous weapon, cometh forth as light. Ye hide him in the sky with cloud and flood of rain, and water-drops, Parjanya! full of sweetness flow. 

Rigveda 1:1:7. The wily Susna, Indra! thou o'er-threwest with thy wondrous powers. The wise beheld this deed of thine: now go beyond their eulogies.

Griffith nowhere used the word deception that's why author didn't used his translation this time. The translation used by author here have word maya. Since I have already written about different meanings of maya. I feel pointless to talk about it further.

In S.B.8:11:3:4, Indra is saying that he is expert in Maya - magic which is written in bracket. Indra is king of devatas. He possess many supernatural powers including black magic.

Suleiman's Claim

In the Devi Bhagavatam, god calls himself as thief,

Devi Bhagavatam 7.33.1-19 “I am the “Sutrâtman, Hiranyagarbha that resides in subtle bodies and it is I that am the Virât, residing in the gross bodies. I am Brahmâ, Visnu, and Mahes’vara; I am the Brâhmâ, Vaisnavi and Raudrî S’aktis. I am the Sun, I am the Moon, I am the Stars; I am beast, birds, Chandâlas and I am the Thief, I am the cruel hunter; I am the virtuous highsouled persons and I am the female, male, and hermaphrodite. There is no doubt in this. O Mountain! Wherever there is anything, seen or heard, I always exist there, within and without, There is nothing moving or unmoving, that can exist without Me…” Tr. Swami Vijnananda

It is mentioned in Bhagavad Purana,

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.9.18 “This venerable Lord is veritable Narayana the Primeval Man who deluding the world with his power called Maya (illusion) moves incognito among the Vrsnis.” Tr. G.V. Tagare

My Response

I don't know why author again pasted the Devi Bhagavatam 7.33.1-19  verse when he already used it in the beginning of his article. You can read my response to it above.

Regarding Srimad Bhagavatam 1.9.18, as I earlier said, this universe is maya created by God in which we are stuck. And we need to free it through our karmas. It has no connection with god cheating people.

Suleiman's Claim

Varaha Purana says that god will create a scripture to delude people in Kali Yuga,

Varaha Purana 71.54-55 This Samhita was named Nissvasa, and Babhravya and Sandila were absorbed in it. Deluded by me, people out of selfish motives, will promulgate their own sastras in Kaliyuga.

Many verses of Bhagvad Purana praises Krishna of using Maya (deception, fraud, illusion). Not just that Hinduism also says that gods reincarnated themselves as Buddha to deceive people into following the wrong way called Buddhism, If time permits me I will give you more detail but let me show you a glimpse,

Padma Purana 6.236.7 O goddess, in the age of Kali, I will appear in the form of a brahmana to preach the false doctrine of Mayavada which is simply covered Buddhism.

Agni Puran chapter 16 shows Buddha’s followers as Daityas (Demons) who will make people leave Vedic religion. 

My response

Lord Vishnu created a false religion to delude rakshasas or demons. You can read my response about it in my another blog - Response to Vedkabhed on voilence in Vedas! 

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